I Hate Raiding.
Posted 03-09-2008 at 09:06 PM by Ciderhelm
I am going to be putting this into something more cohesive, but since the subject keeps coming up, I'm posting this. This is partly in response to the recent issues from Nihilum, as well as the announcement from Risen that they'd no longer be raiding.
Also, I'm not interested in casual players saying "I told you so!" Or any of the garbage that fills the WoW forums. If you've never raided, don't even respond unless you have something substantive, because 9/10ths of non-raiders seem to have an agenda and have no clue why raiding is enjoyable.
I hate hardcore raiding.
I love tanking, I love Warriors, and I love spending time with friends. But hardcore raiding is a tired, awful mechanic.
I've seen people's lives destroyed because they got sucked up into hardcore raiding. I've seen marriages nearly collapse, including my brother-in-law's. I've seen brilliant people's talents put aside in the name of loot. Is it their fault? Is it their weakness? Yes, but we can't pretend that the design of the game has done anything but push it.
I've always felt this way. I've often stated that 15-man UBRS was the most fun I've had in this game -- an instance which could be cleared in 40-120 minutes. I write and develop primarily for new players and new tanks. I'll defend WoW as being similar to sports teams -- it's not an addiction the same way cocaine or video poker are. But sports teams have hard limits and schedules that make their lifestyles both more healthy and more reasonable.
It's conflicting to me, because I was absolutely disappointed by the new content in TBC -- so much so that I let my account go inactive for six months -- and Sunwell looks to be a continuation. In that regards, I sympathize with both Nihilum and Risen, as well as the many other top tier raiders who are just sick of this. Naxxramas, to me, was the last great raid instance.
So, to me, I'm just pissed off from two ends. I hate hardcore raiding for the damage it does to people's lives and their schedules, and I simultaneously hate seeing it become easier and more geared towards casual players.
Though those are contradictory, let me suggest two things. First, I'm aware of how much I enjoyed the difficult push through the encounters of deep Naxxramas, even if I knowingly saw people hurt themselves in real life (on my behalf, I encouraged everyone who had issues to take a break; I wish I had done the same for myself). Second, the easier content has only encouraged more guilds to spend more time raiding, which is a good thing from a content-completion standpoint (raiders get to see everything), but isn't conducive to the general welfare of players.
The game needs a fundamental shift in design that stops players from being allowed to recover from wipes and stops allowing unlimited attempts per night.
A friend who recently left the game said he couldn't keep up, since time is the currency of WoW. He's correct.
My answer lies in original Vaelastrasz. Tune instances around timers. Only the best prepared can make those timers, and the entire stratification of hardcore vs. casual still exists. Once you run out of that time, you don't raid.
You don't win the Superbowl by playing more games than anyone else. You win it by playing better games.
Before someone brings up experience: I've seen every encounter in every raid zone in this game. I have not raided since December, and will not return for Sunwell.
Also, I'm not interested in casual players saying "I told you so!" Or any of the garbage that fills the WoW forums. If you've never raided, don't even respond unless you have something substantive, because 9/10ths of non-raiders seem to have an agenda and have no clue why raiding is enjoyable.
I hate hardcore raiding.
I love tanking, I love Warriors, and I love spending time with friends. But hardcore raiding is a tired, awful mechanic.
I've seen people's lives destroyed because they got sucked up into hardcore raiding. I've seen marriages nearly collapse, including my brother-in-law's. I've seen brilliant people's talents put aside in the name of loot. Is it their fault? Is it their weakness? Yes, but we can't pretend that the design of the game has done anything but push it.
I've always felt this way. I've often stated that 15-man UBRS was the most fun I've had in this game -- an instance which could be cleared in 40-120 minutes. I write and develop primarily for new players and new tanks. I'll defend WoW as being similar to sports teams -- it's not an addiction the same way cocaine or video poker are. But sports teams have hard limits and schedules that make their lifestyles both more healthy and more reasonable.
It's conflicting to me, because I was absolutely disappointed by the new content in TBC -- so much so that I let my account go inactive for six months -- and Sunwell looks to be a continuation. In that regards, I sympathize with both Nihilum and Risen, as well as the many other top tier raiders who are just sick of this. Naxxramas, to me, was the last great raid instance.
So, to me, I'm just pissed off from two ends. I hate hardcore raiding for the damage it does to people's lives and their schedules, and I simultaneously hate seeing it become easier and more geared towards casual players.
Though those are contradictory, let me suggest two things. First, I'm aware of how much I enjoyed the difficult push through the encounters of deep Naxxramas, even if I knowingly saw people hurt themselves in real life (on my behalf, I encouraged everyone who had issues to take a break; I wish I had done the same for myself). Second, the easier content has only encouraged more guilds to spend more time raiding, which is a good thing from a content-completion standpoint (raiders get to see everything), but isn't conducive to the general welfare of players.
The game needs a fundamental shift in design that stops players from being allowed to recover from wipes and stops allowing unlimited attempts per night.
A friend who recently left the game said he couldn't keep up, since time is the currency of WoW. He's correct.
My answer lies in original Vaelastrasz. Tune instances around timers. Only the best prepared can make those timers, and the entire stratification of hardcore vs. casual still exists. Once you run out of that time, you don't raid.
You don't win the Superbowl by playing more games than anyone else. You win it by playing better games.
Before someone brings up experience: I've seen every encounter in every raid zone in this game. I have not raided since December, and will not return for Sunwell.
Total Comments 12
Comments
| | Agreed in many ways. I run with a "Casual" guild and we only raid 3 nights a week, for 3~4 hours each night. We don't go past that as a rule, and will only violate that for extreme exceptions. The relatively low amount of time we devote makes our victories more satisfying, but even I'm having a hard time balancing the time. Also, they need to reward people adequately for meeting those timers. I have the choice right now of raiding to see new dungeons or stopping it all to farm to get 300 riding skill. The prestige of riding a netherdrake and being a black temple raider should not be mutually exclusive. I know virtually nobody firsthand who both raids and has their epic flying mount. |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 12:34 AM by Alent |
| | What was original Vael? |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 04:37 AM by Finelle |
| | Good post Cider. Time truly is the real currency of WoW. Often times I pose the same questions to myself, but that's probably best reserved for my own blog |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 05:56 AM by Caulle |
| | 12 hours a week would still be, if I'm reading Cider correctly, way too much. Maybe "Raiding" should be something that doesn't take more than 1-2 hrs. So basically, all raiding would be more like the Gruul or Magtheridon or Zul'Aman, and less like SSC and BT. I wholeheartedly agree with that. I consider myself a great raider... I do what I need to, I study and read about the fight, I don't make "wipe the raid" mistakes, I'm on time, etc etc. But I just don't have 20 hrs a week to raid. End of story. So who gets left out? Yep, that'd be me. I love Mag's and ZA. Simple, quick, and with ZA, you can do 2 bosses in an hour and call it a night. I wish more places were like that. |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 07:53 AM by MasterWolf |
| | I have recently quit raiding and i will prob stop playing the game soon. This all revolves around Time being the currency of wow. |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 08:06 AM by Lilred |
| | Heroic Black Morass anyone? I think the real issue is that when we start setting a hard limit on encounters then we absolutely have to make them easier or at least different. It simply can't be as demanding on the actions of an individual. Essentially the less attempts you give a raid at an encounter the more forgiving they should make that encounter on 1 individuals actions. |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 08:39 AM by veneretio |
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I've never seen a fight go so wrong so fast because one person died. | |
Posted 03-10-2008 at 10:26 AM by Caulle |
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Posted 03-10-2008 at 11:01 PM by Xav |
| | Very nice post Ciderhelm. I do hate raiding too, maybe I should start the "Casual Offtank" blog soon to explain why and other things. You are right, you don't win the Stanley Cup (I'm Canadian) by playing longer, you win it by playing better. Here is what I think would even things out for hardcore and casuals. The reward of each Boss should be attuned around the time you took to down him, not around a static loot table. Here is a FICTIONNAL example (as usual Blizz would need to do extensive test over that...) : Casual A down Magtheridon in 10 minutes. They get their 2 x T4 chest token and whatever else. Casual B down Mag in 8:00 minutes, they get the same loot + 1 Badge of Justice. Hardcore A down Mag in 6:30, they get 2 x T5 chest token + 3 Badges. Then there is this Hardcore guild (Nihilum, Death and Taxes) who down him under 5 min. They get 2 x T6 token + 4 Badges. Also you would get more golds the faster you are. You get the figures. The better you are, the better loot you get. I would also add an official ranking of all the best kill time on the official websites - somekind of a ladder for the best guild. I know my guild would be more interested in doing Mag again with this system than we are right now. |
Posted 03-11-2008 at 07:53 AM by Henki |
| | good post Cider Its not so much I hate raiding - I just couldn't put in the time anymore... |
Posted 03-11-2008 at 09:38 PM by Mozman |
| | I feel like the "day late dollar short" guy, posting this now. But you know me, gotta get my two cents in there somewhere. I'll make myself feel better by saying it's feedback for the more cohesive post you promised. =P I think that solutions like timers and such downplay a real problem - that it's on the player to make wise life choices for him or herself. Maybe it's the libertarian in me, but I have a hard time thinking it should be Blizzard's job to start the alarm clock and tell you when you're done for the night. I moved outta my parent's house for a reason, right? ![]() The content now can be done on a casual schedule. I'm certain of it, even if I'm only at 5/6 3/4 and months behind the bleeding edge. At 9 hours a week, we've been able to get this far and I have high hopes of seeing at least some of BT before November. (Sunwell is probably aiming a bit high, though. )The lifting of attunements has made the content more accessible. And yes, that means people who should know better win by zerg rather than by skill or coordination. But I don't think that's Blizzard's fault. And the changes now mean that guilds like my own can thrive where it probably wouldn't have been possible in the days of AQ40 trash. Which isn't to say that I don't have a lot of sympathy for what you're talking about here. The truth is that in order to be EJ, or Risen, or any "expert" in the game you have to be there first. Because if you aren't there first, you're just any other joe schmo who's run some numbers on the attack table. And if you want to be there first, you have to put really ridiculous amounts of time in up front. It's certainly not a bargain I could ever make for myself. But I think a lot of the motivators for those world first guilds - prestige, recognition, feeling "elite" in the traditional sense, all those things that signal a separation of the "hardcore" from the casual scrubs - are not things that Blizzard needs to work into the game mechanics. Better loot for faster times, ranking guilds for timed achievements, they're all ways of seeking recognition from someone. Nihilum's Neg is upset because their gear looks the same as the S3 guy's gear. Risen's upset because they think raiding should take EVEN MORE time than it does. But each of them writes about the lack of distinction between the "good" raiders and the Kara-farming casuals buying T6 gear with their 120 hours of Attumen kills. I guess I just don't see any inherent virtue in being "good" at a game. If someone really wants to farm up 100 (!) badges in Mech to buy a pair of awesome legs, yay for them. For my time, I'd much prefer learning Vashj and Kael the "hard" way with the group of people I enjoy playing with. I see a lot of value in self-improvement, and I think players and guilds that think similarly keep track of their own achievements and find value from improving on that rather than "beating" someone else. I don't need Blizz needs to give me a medal for being a better priest than I was a year ago. ![]() And heck, for us, the instances are already built around timers. Trash is a very real pacing mechanism for us when we've only got three hours in a night. I think our first week or so of Hydross attempts ended up with only four or five actuall tries per night because of that. Heh, apologies for the huuuuge comment. Time to stick a fork in this post. ^.^ |
Posted 03-13-2008 at 07:03 AM by Anaea |
| | How do you feel about this now Cider since WoTLK? I'm curious to see if this has changed any with the achievement system. |
Posted 01-17-2009 at 02:54 AM by Krashtork |
Recent Blog Entries by Ciderhelm
- Map to End All Maps (Part 1) (07-14-2008)
- AOC Raiding Impressions (vs. WoW) (07-08-2008)
- Tank Skill (WoW wins over AoC) (07-03-2008)
- Barrow Dens Are Where Dreams Are Sent To Die (03-16-2008)
- I Hate Raiding. (03-09-2008)







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